Get real.
–And what makes you think he wouldn’t have seen the Half-Guard? That makes no sense.
I think you are greatly underestimating the grappling skills of high-level Judoka back then. Remember, they already knew the “Kimura” and “Triangle choke”, etc. It was the Gracies who had not yet discovered those moves.
Watch some Oda videos.The guy was born in the late eighteen hundreds.
These videos are just a little bit later than Koma’s time, but you’ll get the idea of what Judo grappling existed, independent of the Gracies. It’s pretty much all there –He even shows “The Lockdown” (in clip #2)
– Shen
Is there any debate? JJJ has certainly been around much longer than BJJ.
BUT I think you are mistaken if you think those JJJ techniques all exist in BJJ (or vice versa). JJJ and BJJ are pretty far apart, while old-school Judo and BJJ are very similar (due to BJJ coming from Judo).
One great way to tell “modern era” grappling from the Koryu (“traditional”) style(s) of JJJ grappling is that in modern Grappling the person is often pinned on their back and submitted. In Koryu (“traditional”) JJJ styles –not modern Judo influenced JJJ styles– they like to put their opponent face down.
The grappling maneuvers we associate with Judo and BJJ are a fairly modern invention. True Samurai Jujutsu styles did NOT engage in a lot of ground grappling. Each style taught a few “desperation moves”, but many of the Jiu-jitsu techniques we see in these old Judo clips would simply not be possible with armor on.
That “flowy” Judo newaza/ BJJ style of grappling is mostly a post-armor invention. Koryu JJJ looks nothing like BJJ.
That is one reason why Judo was so revolutionary: it combined the applicable JJJ from multiple sources into one cohesive system.
– Shen
But what WE tend to think of as “Japanese Jiu Jitsu” of the Samurai, is actually Jiu jitsu that flourished as the Samurai era came to an end. The joint-lock intensive styles of jiu jitsu are the “newer” ones (created in the last 250 or so years) and were not truly Samurai arts.
The Koryu styles actually studied by the warrior class of Feudal Japan, probably contained about as much ground fighting as your average NAVY Seal learns. Ground techniques but were WAY down on the list of things to learn. They were preparing for armed combat between people in Armor. That’s a completely different reality than two unarmed people fighting without any armor.
When the weapons and armor went away, the Japanese Jiu jitsu we all think of (wrist locks, standing Armbars, Hip Throws, etc) was really born.
– Shen
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=forum_framed.posts&forum=11&thread=1823839&page=1&pc=20
Related articles
- History of Jiu Jitsu: Judo Travels the World and Maeda Meets Gracie (bleacherreport.com)
- Vale Tudo And Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (fusionmma.com)
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